Joseph Conrad also liked to tell a story through dialogue, i.e., a group of men sitting around while one tells a story, as if around a campfire. It bugged me when I first read his work. I forget which book it was, but it opened with standard prose, great prose, for several pages, and then switched to dialogue. I wished he hadn't done that. I was so amped after reading the opening pages that the transition was a letdown. I haven't read any Turgenev yet. He's on one of my lists. Maybe I won't read this book first.
I agree, Corey. I thought that story within a story put me at one Remove from the action and the characters. TBH it got on my nerves. As Kurtz put it, the horror, the horror
Yes! That’s the one I was thinking of but couldn’t recall its name. It was my introduction to Conrad. The first few pages are beautifully written and then the rest is dialogue. It is still a great story. I think it could’ve been better, though, had he maintained the initial prose style.
I agree, Corey. I thought that story within a story put me at one Remove from the action and the characters. TBH it got on my nerves. As Kurtz put it, the horror, the horror
I found it useful for "Fart of Darkness" my Twitter epic of James Comey and The Orange One.
"FART OF DARKNESS" - The Memoranda of James Comey - by Moe Murph
[Setting -- A dinner cruise boat, anchored on the banks of Georgetown on the Potomac River. Gathered around what he considered a serviceable but not exceptional Bordeaux, James Comey recounts his encounter with the one known only as Drumph.]
Traffic was heavy. I finally reached the White House, with my Office Depot mini-notepad and Sharpie weighing heavily on my mind. At threshold of the sanctum, I heard a Whoooosh. A door opened, and a haggard man clutching a bottle of cream liquor (horrors) blinked warily at me. Priebus.
"He's a great man, you know," stammered the factotum. "You won't sully him, will you, Comey?"
"I am a reliable man," I shot back. "Go home and play some piano, Priebus, you're as drunk as an Irish tipsy cake."
Gazing into the darkness, a shiver shot down my upright spine.
[James Comey pours another glass of fine red wine and continues.]
A formless mass slithered and shook upon the bed. The rustle of greasy paper and the smell of his effluvium caused me to step back momentarily.
"Are you a lawyer? Come CLOSER!!!"
We talked of many things. He provided for my safekeeping his collection of 80's era John Bannon gossip clippings.
"Marla said it was the best sex she ever had," he mumbled, as I pulled his filthy sheet over him. I could not help but feel pity for him, mixed, with repulsion.
I fled the scene as soon as an opening presented itself.
"Sir, I am heading to Costco on a grocery run. Can I pick up a few 12-paks of Diet Coke for you?"
"Oh, GAWD yes, "he mumbled. "That bastard Jackson is rationing my supply. Babbling about EKG results or something. PAH! I am surrounded by fools and coffee boys."
"Great," I called back as I backed through the door. "Back in a trice."
I fled like a coward back to FBI headquarters, took several showers, and headed home, musing about the large fluffy pillow cases enveloping him. How quick, how easy it would have been to have released us all, even him.
·[Comey reached the end of the bottle and cast it with a mighty throw into the Potomac River. Let the seagulls have it now. All was silent now on the river. The party sat in their own thoughts, until first light broke over the spires of Georgetown.]
I think the story within a story was once a common way to add a veneer of reality to a story, to present it as possibly true, like a narrator saying, here’s a story I heard, or here’s a manuscript or letters that were left to me. Those devices are still used, of course, maybe more in genre fiction, but they do allow kind of an afterword, as you note, that can also be used to add irony or introduce uncertainty in the reader’s head.
In Borges’s short piece, “Kafka and His Precursors,” he identifies a number of historical texts that appear to anticipate Kafka, which sounds a little like “anticipatory plagiarism.” The piece ends with this masterful quote: “The fact is that every writer creates his own precursors.”
Hi Frank. Yes, I think you're right regarding the framing device, viz presenting the story as possibly true. It dies seem like a get out of jail free card to me!
Thanks for the heads up about that Borges story. I now have it lined up to read. And yes, it does sound remarkably like anticipatory plagiarism.
And yet that sort of device was also parodied early on. For example, Washington Irving’s “Rip Van Winkle” is presented as “The following Tale was found among the papers of the late Diedrich Knickerbocker, an old gentleman of New York…” Several years earlier Irving had published a satirical book, A History of New-York, under the Knickerbocker name, even going so far as to place newspaper ads inquiring about the old man’s disappearance to generate public interest, perhaps one of the first literary hoaxes. (That pseudonym lives on in the New York NBA team’s nickname, the Knicks.)
Fascinating. It's a long time since I read RVW, so I wasn't aware of those connections. Thanks!
I've just read the Borges article. I love the point he makes that although those other authors were precursors, we wouldn't have seen the connections without Kafka. I'm not entirely convinced that it's true, but it's a very thought-provoking proposition.
Really appreciate this review, Terry. I love hearing your honesty, opinions and thoughts, and I especially loved these footnotes. Anticipatory plagiarism! What a great concept. Have you managed to weave that into your series of Experiments in Style? If so, I've either forgotten or I've missed it.
I don't know this book, though there are many Penguin Classics I don't know or haven't yet read.
I suppose you could argue that the narrator is projecting his own, adult self into the thoughts of the boy he then was, even though the boy likely wasn't actually aware of any such feelings.
Thanks very much, Nathan. I love footnotes. I wish Substack would bring in a way to have footnotes within footnotes!
I, too, love the concept of anticipatory plagiarism. I'm not sure how I could weave it into an EiS version, unless I discover that someone in the past wrote about banging their head on the wall. I suppose I ought to accuse Raymond Queneau of anticipatory plagiarism for nicking my idea of writing the same story in different styles, even though it was his book, Exercises in Style, that gave me the idea in the first place. 🤔 My head hurts, and not from banging it on the wall.
I love the Penguin Classics range, especially the informative introductions and end notes. If I had the time and the money I'd buy the whole lot!
I think there is something in what you say about the adult narrator. His 15 year-old self was very much aware of his feelings, if my memory serves me well, but I think the aduklt narrator is describing them in adult terms, which seems a bit of a mismatch to me.
“We’ll never know how this panned out because the protagonist I’m writing about didn’t come back.” If I ever decide to write a novel I might use this approach myself."
Yes! The perfect way to end my novel. Thank you, Terry.
I hope your readers understand that your review is "tongue-in-cheek." Ok, so I'm an uneducated slob, myself.
Bravo. I'm not going to read it as I trust your perception of the reality of this book. You uneducated? I think not. Good level of gusto in this review.
Thanks very much, Mary. However, before deciding not to read it, do take note of what Larisa Rimerman said in her comment. There's more to the book than I chose to focus on. I just happen not to like it very much.
How can you consider a story written in the middle of 19th century from POV of a modern, light-minded, 21 century's man? Ivan Sergeevich Turgenev's First Love actually is not about 15 years old boy's first love (though it is also), but about his father's forbidden love to the young girl from a lower society. Turgenev and his male literary characters were from Russian aristocracy and juxtaposition of the highs and the lows is the background of this story. A girl's mother is a poor petty-bourgeois, their dacha is the state of neglect, as the guests and their banal games. By the way, why do you need to remember the passing guests? They are needed only for the background. The story's main moment is his father's slap in the face of his young lover.
It's so strange to me, how easily to disregard a serious literary work of classic and offer the concept of the"anticipatory plagiarism" at the end. Fortunately, nothing can bother Turgenev's work. As you confirm right now yourself, his works are read and will be read in the far future.
Hi, Larisa, thanks for your comment. "How can you consider a story written in the middle of 19th century from POV of a modern, light-minded, 21 century's man?" Being realistic, I don't think I have an awful lot of choice.
I agree with much of what you say, especially asbout the slap by his father, which has real shock value.
But...
I think that just because a work is regarded as a classic doesn't mean that *I* have to like it or think it has merit. And I haven't disregarded it, as shown by the fact that I've reviewed it.
Hi, Terry, thank you for your reply. If a literary work survived centuries and still is read and will be read, I am sure, I would give more attention to it, not to be so dismissive of it, as you have been, especially when you consider yourself as a professional in literature and people trust your review. It is not a choice of liking it because it is classic. Reviewer from my point of view, has to analyze work; at least, I, as your reader, have to see that you understand that you are taking about. You have a lot of choice. Would you talk about Dickens's characters' lives as they are living now? You reviewed work which you didn't understand; you didn't know the country, the time, the society and their rules and so on... Sorry. Don't pay attention. I love literature, especially, Russian.
Such an interesting point about 'anticipatory plagiarism' in that footnote Terry - I had first come across the concept on a course I recently took, and it's great to see it explained here so well too.
Also: "Why not just tell the story instead of creating a story within a story?" Oh, I could ask this question of so many things I have read! I watched what might have been termed a drama-documentary recently - but it wasn't that, quite - it was a documentary (lots of face-to-camera shots of investigators explaining stuff) in which scenes of a crime and its aftermath were also re-enacted - fair enough - but the really odd thing was that the faces-to-camera real people were ALSO present as onlookers of the re-enacted scenes, with camera operators and the director in shot, too - with the director explaining to the actors what the scene they were about to perform represented. It was almost incomprehensible. 🤣 🙄
I’ve not read the book but in hindsight “puppy love” overwhelms the youthful mind filled with hormones and groans at night in dreams chasing after the girl next door. A youth expresses best he/she can. Decade have passed now hormones are expressed In earlier maturation but not necessarily maturity of mind.
Thanks for commenting, Richard. Your co0mment reminds me of something George Melley said, or so I was told: "I was really glad when my sex drive disappeared because it was like being chained to a maniac." 🤣
Better first love book: Le Grand Meaulnes
Thanks Michael. I haven’t read that yet.
Joseph Conrad also liked to tell a story through dialogue, i.e., a group of men sitting around while one tells a story, as if around a campfire. It bugged me when I first read his work. I forget which book it was, but it opened with standard prose, great prose, for several pages, and then switched to dialogue. I wished he hadn't done that. I was so amped after reading the opening pages that the transition was a letdown. I haven't read any Turgenev yet. He's on one of my lists. Maybe I won't read this book first.
I agree, Corey. I thought that story within a story put me at one Remove from the action and the characters. TBH it got on my nerves. As Kurtz put it, the horror, the horror
Oh yes, thanks Corey. Didn't he do that in Heart of Darkness?
Yes! That’s the one I was thinking of but couldn’t recall its name. It was my introduction to Conrad. The first few pages are beautifully written and then the rest is dialogue. It is still a great story. I think it could’ve been better, though, had he maintained the initial prose style.
I agree, Corey. I thought that story within a story put me at one Remove from the action and the characters. TBH it got on my nerves. As Kurtz put it, the horror, the horror
I found it useful for "Fart of Darkness" my Twitter epic of James Comey and The Orange One.
"FART OF DARKNESS" - The Memoranda of James Comey - by Moe Murph
[Setting -- A dinner cruise boat, anchored on the banks of Georgetown on the Potomac River. Gathered around what he considered a serviceable but not exceptional Bordeaux, James Comey recounts his encounter with the one known only as Drumph.]
Traffic was heavy. I finally reached the White House, with my Office Depot mini-notepad and Sharpie weighing heavily on my mind. At threshold of the sanctum, I heard a Whoooosh. A door opened, and a haggard man clutching a bottle of cream liquor (horrors) blinked warily at me. Priebus.
"He's a great man, you know," stammered the factotum. "You won't sully him, will you, Comey?"
"I am a reliable man," I shot back. "Go home and play some piano, Priebus, you're as drunk as an Irish tipsy cake."
Gazing into the darkness, a shiver shot down my upright spine.
[James Comey pours another glass of fine red wine and continues.]
A formless mass slithered and shook upon the bed. The rustle of greasy paper and the smell of his effluvium caused me to step back momentarily.
"Are you a lawyer? Come CLOSER!!!"
We talked of many things. He provided for my safekeeping his collection of 80's era John Bannon gossip clippings.
"Marla said it was the best sex she ever had," he mumbled, as I pulled his filthy sheet over him. I could not help but feel pity for him, mixed, with repulsion.
I fled the scene as soon as an opening presented itself.
"Sir, I am heading to Costco on a grocery run. Can I pick up a few 12-paks of Diet Coke for you?"
"Oh, GAWD yes, "he mumbled. "That bastard Jackson is rationing my supply. Babbling about EKG results or something. PAH! I am surrounded by fools and coffee boys."
"Great," I called back as I backed through the door. "Back in a trice."
I fled like a coward back to FBI headquarters, took several showers, and headed home, musing about the large fluffy pillow cases enveloping him. How quick, how easy it would have been to have released us all, even him.
·[Comey reached the end of the bottle and cast it with a mighty throw into the Potomac River. Let the seagulls have it now. All was silent now on the river. The party sat in their own thoughts, until first light broke over the spires of Georgetown.]
I think the story within a story was once a common way to add a veneer of reality to a story, to present it as possibly true, like a narrator saying, here’s a story I heard, or here’s a manuscript or letters that were left to me. Those devices are still used, of course, maybe more in genre fiction, but they do allow kind of an afterword, as you note, that can also be used to add irony or introduce uncertainty in the reader’s head.
In Borges’s short piece, “Kafka and His Precursors,” he identifies a number of historical texts that appear to anticipate Kafka, which sounds a little like “anticipatory plagiarism.” The piece ends with this masterful quote: “The fact is that every writer creates his own precursors.”
Hi Frank. Yes, I think you're right regarding the framing device, viz presenting the story as possibly true. It dies seem like a get out of jail free card to me!
Thanks for the heads up about that Borges story. I now have it lined up to read. And yes, it does sound remarkably like anticipatory plagiarism.
And yet that sort of device was also parodied early on. For example, Washington Irving’s “Rip Van Winkle” is presented as “The following Tale was found among the papers of the late Diedrich Knickerbocker, an old gentleman of New York…” Several years earlier Irving had published a satirical book, A History of New-York, under the Knickerbocker name, even going so far as to place newspaper ads inquiring about the old man’s disappearance to generate public interest, perhaps one of the first literary hoaxes. (That pseudonym lives on in the New York NBA team’s nickname, the Knicks.)
Fascinating. It's a long time since I read RVW, so I wasn't aware of those connections. Thanks!
I've just read the Borges article. I love the point he makes that although those other authors were precursors, we wouldn't have seen the connections without Kafka. I'm not entirely convinced that it's true, but it's a very thought-provoking proposition.
Well now I'm really intrigued by this book! Please keep doing these reviews. Great idea with your signature style.
Thanks, Kathleen. "My signature style"? 🤣 What, you mean mildly acerbic, tongue-in-cheek and self-deprecating> Chortle!
That’s it! 🥸🤩😄
🤣 chortle!
Really appreciate this review, Terry. I love hearing your honesty, opinions and thoughts, and I especially loved these footnotes. Anticipatory plagiarism! What a great concept. Have you managed to weave that into your series of Experiments in Style? If so, I've either forgotten or I've missed it.
I don't know this book, though there are many Penguin Classics I don't know or haven't yet read.
I suppose you could argue that the narrator is projecting his own, adult self into the thoughts of the boy he then was, even though the boy likely wasn't actually aware of any such feelings.
Thanks very much, Nathan. I love footnotes. I wish Substack would bring in a way to have footnotes within footnotes!
I, too, love the concept of anticipatory plagiarism. I'm not sure how I could weave it into an EiS version, unless I discover that someone in the past wrote about banging their head on the wall. I suppose I ought to accuse Raymond Queneau of anticipatory plagiarism for nicking my idea of writing the same story in different styles, even though it was his book, Exercises in Style, that gave me the idea in the first place. 🤔 My head hurts, and not from banging it on the wall.
I love the Penguin Classics range, especially the informative introductions and end notes. If I had the time and the money I'd buy the whole lot!
I think there is something in what you say about the adult narrator. His 15 year-old self was very much aware of his feelings, if my memory serves me well, but I think the aduklt narrator is describing them in adult terms, which seems a bit of a mismatch to me.
A footnote within a footnote would be really excellent.
Haha, there you go, you managed a case of anticipatory plagiarism relating to EiS within a comment of a comment! ;)
“We’ll never know how this panned out because the protagonist I’m writing about didn’t come back.” If I ever decide to write a novel I might use this approach myself."
Yes! The perfect way to end my novel. Thank you, Terry.
I hope your readers understand that your review is "tongue-in-cheek." Ok, so I'm an uneducated slob, myself.
😂 Glad to have been of service, Jim! And yes, my review was meant to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek: thanks for acknowledging that fact. 😃
Bravo. I'm not going to read it as I trust your perception of the reality of this book. You uneducated? I think not. Good level of gusto in this review.
PS, thanks for your comment about my being uneducated. I am an eclectic reader who is fortunate enough to have a mind like an ever-expanding dustbin!
Thanks very much, Mary. However, before deciding not to read it, do take note of what Larisa Rimerman said in her comment. There's more to the book than I chose to focus on. I just happen not to like it very much.
Good point. You are wise and well educated. 👍
😂 thanks, Mary!
How can you consider a story written in the middle of 19th century from POV of a modern, light-minded, 21 century's man? Ivan Sergeevich Turgenev's First Love actually is not about 15 years old boy's first love (though it is also), but about his father's forbidden love to the young girl from a lower society. Turgenev and his male literary characters were from Russian aristocracy and juxtaposition of the highs and the lows is the background of this story. A girl's mother is a poor petty-bourgeois, their dacha is the state of neglect, as the guests and their banal games. By the way, why do you need to remember the passing guests? They are needed only for the background. The story's main moment is his father's slap in the face of his young lover.
It's so strange to me, how easily to disregard a serious literary work of classic and offer the concept of the"anticipatory plagiarism" at the end. Fortunately, nothing can bother Turgenev's work. As you confirm right now yourself, his works are read and will be read in the far future.
Hi, Larisa, thanks for your comment. "How can you consider a story written in the middle of 19th century from POV of a modern, light-minded, 21 century's man?" Being realistic, I don't think I have an awful lot of choice.
I agree with much of what you say, especially asbout the slap by his father, which has real shock value.
But...
I think that just because a work is regarded as a classic doesn't mean that *I* have to like it or think it has merit. And I haven't disregarded it, as shown by the fact that I've reviewed it.
Hi, Terry, thank you for your reply. If a literary work survived centuries and still is read and will be read, I am sure, I would give more attention to it, not to be so dismissive of it, as you have been, especially when you consider yourself as a professional in literature and people trust your review. It is not a choice of liking it because it is classic. Reviewer from my point of view, has to analyze work; at least, I, as your reader, have to see that you understand that you are taking about. You have a lot of choice. Would you talk about Dickens's characters' lives as they are living now? You reviewed work which you didn't understand; you didn't know the country, the time, the society and their rules and so on... Sorry. Don't pay attention. I love literature, especially, Russian.
Such an interesting point about 'anticipatory plagiarism' in that footnote Terry - I had first come across the concept on a course I recently took, and it's great to see it explained here so well too.
Also: "Why not just tell the story instead of creating a story within a story?" Oh, I could ask this question of so many things I have read! I watched what might have been termed a drama-documentary recently - but it wasn't that, quite - it was a documentary (lots of face-to-camera shots of investigators explaining stuff) in which scenes of a crime and its aftermath were also re-enacted - fair enough - but the really odd thing was that the faces-to-camera real people were ALSO present as onlookers of the re-enacted scenes, with camera operators and the director in shot, too - with the director explaining to the actors what the scene they were about to perform represented. It was almost incomprehensible. 🤣 🙄
That must have been a brilliant course: I know the bloke who taught it. As for that programme, my head is going round just reading about it!
Yup, it was ace! 😇
I didn’t give you the name or the channel of that programme on purpose, in case you were tempted to watch it! 🤣
Most considerate of you, thank you😁
I’ve not read the book but in hindsight “puppy love” overwhelms the youthful mind filled with hormones and groans at night in dreams chasing after the girl next door. A youth expresses best he/she can. Decade have passed now hormones are expressed In earlier maturation but not necessarily maturity of mind.
Thanks for commenting, Richard. Your co0mment reminds me of something George Melley said, or so I was told: "I was really glad when my sex drive disappeared because it was like being chained to a maniac." 🤣