Some heartbreaking stuff here. Bad teachers do SO much damage, particularly to talented children. I could write so much here, but perhaps just one comment - I know a tremendously talented singer from a very musical family who got kicked out of class as a child because she wouldn’t stick to the melody, she’d always improvise beautiful harmonies. Took her years to ever open her mouth in public again. There are some teachers that do SO much damage. Sigh…
I was accused of plagiarism by a Philosophy prof in college. I wrote the same paper--on the subject of the intellectual debt Western Philosophy owes Middle Eastern philosophers, theologians, and scientists--a subject which directly threatened his little eurocentric ego--for a Mathematics course and an Advanced Expository Writing course in addition to the aforesaid really boring philosophy class. He based his belief on the fact that my research paper used more sophisticated language than my pop quizzes. He clearly knew nothing about Islamic philosophy. I, however, did grow up in the Middle East and had a theologian with a particular interest in Islamic Philosophy for a father. Actually, I teethed on Islamic philosophy, in Arabic, quite literally. I think I must have learned to walk by pulling Islamic philosophy from off the hallway bookshelves as well.
Did he give me an F for this egregious academic offense? He did not. I got a C+ for a supposedly plagiarized philosophy term paper. I never did understand that grade. But it was worth it. I don't think he ever looked at Western Philosophy the same again. The Mathematics prof gave me an A- and my Advanced Expository prof gave me an A+ and asked me to TA a course the next term on contemporary post-colonialist African writers (which I declined because I thought both the African-American and Caucasian students would reject me as a TA--this was the 70's). We were to travel around the continent of Africa meeting with highly regarded African writers, which scared the bejesus out of me. That job offer made up for that C+. (As an aside, that prof was the only African-American actor in "Night of the Living Dead". A very cool dude who wore very squeaky sandals, no matter what the season.)
I never forgot that Philosophy prof. He reminded me of a camel that once spat in my face in Cairo.
On the other end of it, I was teaching a poetry class at a public school in San Francisco. Only one student had been born in the U.S. Everyone else was a recent immigrant. 18 students from 18 countries. The four Chinese girls (from different countries) were horrified when I asked everyone to write a poem themselves--from their own literary tradition or otherwise. I had just picked up an international poetry anthology at a thrift shop and read the Asian entries. So, very sadly, I knew they had plagiarized their poems and had a copy of the book they used to prove it. I gave them a second chance. The second chance didn't look any more original than the first bunch of poems but I closed my eyes and gave them all a B for suffering through the shame of it all. Of being Asian? Of stealing? I'm not sure what for. I wanted to give everyone an A for effort but the teacher of the class would not allow it. I never understood that either. How do you get an A in poetry? Or an F? Or a C?
Writers steal a lot. I had a friend who stole my ideas on cultural misappropriation without understanding them. She was on National Public Radio regularly for a while (until she said the F-bomb on the air). I complained that she was using my work without attribution. She offered to name me on the air but, given that she didn't understand a word I said, I was horrified by that and declined the privilege.
You really can't win.
I think it must be a lot more trouble to plagiarize than to write your own story. Especially in fiction. Why school teachers try to teach fiction writing is beyond me. They cannot even teach essay writing. What they really should focus on is teaching kids how to tell their deepest authentic truth, damn what other people think. Maybe then the world wouldn't be in the decrepit state it is today. And voters would be much better at pinpointing propaganda and lies.
Thanks for commenting. I would always give marks for effort and marks for attainment. I had that myself as a student. I think lots of valuable lessons can be learnt from studying fiction. Re: stealing. If you use one person's work, it's plagiarism; if you use lots of people's wrok, it's research 🤣
It's amazing what the careless remark of someone held in esteem can have on our lives. You can't even be on the lookout for them as they're most visible in the rearview mirror.
My eighth grade teacher said that my short story was too good for me to have written it. I didn't find a backwards compliment in that accusation. The message I got was that she didn't like me. I wish that I would have saved it.
First, I can see this happening to my 13-year-old. She's an excellent and creative writer and I can see her being accused of not being mature enough to use the vocabulary that she uses ;-)
Second, there are SO many reason kids cheat or plagiarize. And yes, teachers should be able to recognize when a kid is writing "above their pay grade." I have caught many by copying and pasting phrases to Google. But we also have SO many students. There are a lot of really good layers to this discussion and it's one we should really keep having.
I hope your daughter doesn't have that happen to her. I know it's a challenge to get to know all the students, but I think teachers should at least try. I'm sure YOU do, but thinking back, my teacher was, let's say, blinkered, or possibly lazy, or possibly suffering from biased assumptions. For example, I was the only pupil in my class who knew what Macbeth was all about, despite the fact that we had never studied Shakespeare. One would have thought perhaps that might have given him a clue that I was more literate than he apparently gave me credit for.
I'm sorry that happened, Terry but I am glad to know that didn't cause regret about all the things you accomplished in the years that followed but I do understand the "What Ifs" provoked because of someone else's "nudge" away from our passions.
You just reminded me of a moment where a teacher asked me about something like that, publicly, I didn't and I recall being silent but furious as I had never done anything like that.
Thanks, Edward. Doing that publicly is appalling. Are you still furious? I find with some things that I feel a bit annoyed even years later, especially if I maintained a dignified silence at the time.
I completely forgot all about that moment, and then after reading this piece, a door was opened, fortunately for my sake, that door has closed again. :)
Very good read Terry! Sorry you had to go through that. I think I mentioned to you in another post about one of my teachers doing the same kind of thing. My teachers never got to know me in school either. If they had, they would have found out a whole lot of things that I enjoyed.
It seems like every few jobs I apply for, they tell you it better pass the plagiarism checker. The work I have done for a few companies, I always use a free checker to make sure and it always comes out 100% unique.
Hi Matthew, thank you. Yes, I remember now -- sorry, I'd forgotten about that when I wrote this article. Why don't you plonk a link to it in the comments here so that people can check it out if they wish to?
I think that's a good use of plagiarism checkers, checking your own stuff. That would have come in handy when I tried an AI research and writing app a few months ago. It wrote the article outline with loads of references in about 30 seconds, but then I spent a long time checking whether the app had simply copied and pasted or rewritten it. That was because I didn't quite trust the app!
I'm sorry that this happened to you, Terry. What a lazy teacher.
At junior school I remember a classmate named Justin being hauled over the coals in a lesson where we'd been told to write something from a textbook in our own words, for writing something like 'as explained in the previous chapter'. Hilarious!
In a biology lesson I was called to the front with two other pupils whom I vehemently disliked - they were bullies and best friends with each other, and I went out of my way to avoid them. Dr Bishop remonstrated with us for colluding on our previous week's homework. I was stunned, and found myself apologising for something I had no knowledge of. I got to the bottom of it later: you see, I would be one of the earliest arrivals at school in the morning, and would hand my homework in immediately by putting it on the front desk, where three piles of exercise books would form ready to be deposited into the relevant teachers' lockers. I had had no idea that others arriving after me were habitually rifling through the piles to find someone else's homework to quickly copy.
Lesson learned. I took to handing my homework in right at the last minute after that. But I remained furious with Dr Bishop for not having a clue about the dynamics of her class (there were only 15 of us)!
I think you were right to remain furious. Apart from anything else, she should have known her pupils well enough to know which ones would be likely to cheat.
When I was a similar age, about 14 years old. I let my friend look at my history essay as he was obviously cramming - it was the night before. We would often look at each other's work - he would usually just want to know what text book chapters to read, and usually for fun argue for the opposite conclusion that I wrote referencing some really obscure sources. I enjoyed that, it felt like discourse.
This time, he plagiarised my work. The teacher approached us both with our essays and said: "These two are very similar. I think one of you copied the other. You have until the end of the class to come clean."
At the end of the class, my friend and I stayed behind and he admitted to copying my work, and he said 'but you already knew that." The teacher responded: "No, I didn't know. There's a difference between knowing and suspecting. All I knew is that the two essays were similar."
I didn't say a word throughout the whole thing, only passed my friend as note saying 'Really? You're an idiot.'
But the experience stayed with me. She was neutral and she gave us the opportunity to clean up our own mess. And I outgrew my naivety, without becoming overprotective of my work.
You were right about your friend! But having been a teacher, I've seen that kids simply don't trhink. For example, they will tell two teachers two completely different reasons why they didn't turn up in a lesson, without stopping to think that those teachers might actually talk to each other!
Some heartbreaking stuff here. Bad teachers do SO much damage, particularly to talented children. I could write so much here, but perhaps just one comment - I know a tremendously talented singer from a very musical family who got kicked out of class as a child because she wouldn’t stick to the melody, she’d always improvise beautiful harmonies. Took her years to ever open her mouth in public again. There are some teachers that do SO much damage. Sigh…
So sad. A friend of hours is a wonderful artist but did nothing with it for decades because a teacher told her she was useless
I was accused of plagiarism by a Philosophy prof in college. I wrote the same paper--on the subject of the intellectual debt Western Philosophy owes Middle Eastern philosophers, theologians, and scientists--a subject which directly threatened his little eurocentric ego--for a Mathematics course and an Advanced Expository Writing course in addition to the aforesaid really boring philosophy class. He based his belief on the fact that my research paper used more sophisticated language than my pop quizzes. He clearly knew nothing about Islamic philosophy. I, however, did grow up in the Middle East and had a theologian with a particular interest in Islamic Philosophy for a father. Actually, I teethed on Islamic philosophy, in Arabic, quite literally. I think I must have learned to walk by pulling Islamic philosophy from off the hallway bookshelves as well.
Did he give me an F for this egregious academic offense? He did not. I got a C+ for a supposedly plagiarized philosophy term paper. I never did understand that grade. But it was worth it. I don't think he ever looked at Western Philosophy the same again. The Mathematics prof gave me an A- and my Advanced Expository prof gave me an A+ and asked me to TA a course the next term on contemporary post-colonialist African writers (which I declined because I thought both the African-American and Caucasian students would reject me as a TA--this was the 70's). We were to travel around the continent of Africa meeting with highly regarded African writers, which scared the bejesus out of me. That job offer made up for that C+. (As an aside, that prof was the only African-American actor in "Night of the Living Dead". A very cool dude who wore very squeaky sandals, no matter what the season.)
I never forgot that Philosophy prof. He reminded me of a camel that once spat in my face in Cairo.
On the other end of it, I was teaching a poetry class at a public school in San Francisco. Only one student had been born in the U.S. Everyone else was a recent immigrant. 18 students from 18 countries. The four Chinese girls (from different countries) were horrified when I asked everyone to write a poem themselves--from their own literary tradition or otherwise. I had just picked up an international poetry anthology at a thrift shop and read the Asian entries. So, very sadly, I knew they had plagiarized their poems and had a copy of the book they used to prove it. I gave them a second chance. The second chance didn't look any more original than the first bunch of poems but I closed my eyes and gave them all a B for suffering through the shame of it all. Of being Asian? Of stealing? I'm not sure what for. I wanted to give everyone an A for effort but the teacher of the class would not allow it. I never understood that either. How do you get an A in poetry? Or an F? Or a C?
Writers steal a lot. I had a friend who stole my ideas on cultural misappropriation without understanding them. She was on National Public Radio regularly for a while (until she said the F-bomb on the air). I complained that she was using my work without attribution. She offered to name me on the air but, given that she didn't understand a word I said, I was horrified by that and declined the privilege.
You really can't win.
I think it must be a lot more trouble to plagiarize than to write your own story. Especially in fiction. Why school teachers try to teach fiction writing is beyond me. They cannot even teach essay writing. What they really should focus on is teaching kids how to tell their deepest authentic truth, damn what other people think. Maybe then the world wouldn't be in the decrepit state it is today. And voters would be much better at pinpointing propaganda and lies.
Thanks for commenting. I would always give marks for effort and marks for attainment. I had that myself as a student. I think lots of valuable lessons can be learnt from studying fiction. Re: stealing. If you use one person's work, it's plagiarism; if you use lots of people's wrok, it's research 🤣
It's amazing what the careless remark of someone held in esteem can have on our lives. You can't even be on the lookout for them as they're most visible in the rearview mirror.
My eighth grade teacher said that my short story was too good for me to have written it. I didn't find a backwards compliment in that accusation. The message I got was that she didn't like me. I wish that I would have saved it.
well, whatever way one looks at it, it's a very unproductive thing for a teacher to say. I wish I'd kept mine too :-)
Oh my goodness, there are so many layers to this.
First, I can see this happening to my 13-year-old. She's an excellent and creative writer and I can see her being accused of not being mature enough to use the vocabulary that she uses ;-)
Second, there are SO many reason kids cheat or plagiarize. And yes, teachers should be able to recognize when a kid is writing "above their pay grade." I have caught many by copying and pasting phrases to Google. But we also have SO many students. There are a lot of really good layers to this discussion and it's one we should really keep having.
I hope your daughter doesn't have that happen to her. I know it's a challenge to get to know all the students, but I think teachers should at least try. I'm sure YOU do, but thinking back, my teacher was, let's say, blinkered, or possibly lazy, or possibly suffering from biased assumptions. For example, I was the only pupil in my class who knew what Macbeth was all about, despite the fact that we had never studied Shakespeare. One would have thought perhaps that might have given him a clue that I was more literate than he apparently gave me credit for.
I'm sorry that happened, Terry but I am glad to know that didn't cause regret about all the things you accomplished in the years that followed but I do understand the "What Ifs" provoked because of someone else's "nudge" away from our passions.
You just reminded me of a moment where a teacher asked me about something like that, publicly, I didn't and I recall being silent but furious as I had never done anything like that.
Thanks, Edward. Doing that publicly is appalling. Are you still furious? I find with some things that I feel a bit annoyed even years later, especially if I maintained a dignified silence at the time.
I completely forgot all about that moment, and then after reading this piece, a door was opened, fortunately for my sake, that door has closed again. :)
Oh, sorry!
Very good read Terry! Sorry you had to go through that. I think I mentioned to you in another post about one of my teachers doing the same kind of thing. My teachers never got to know me in school either. If they had, they would have found out a whole lot of things that I enjoyed.
It seems like every few jobs I apply for, they tell you it better pass the plagiarism checker. The work I have done for a few companies, I always use a free checker to make sure and it always comes out 100% unique.
Hi Matthew, thank you. Yes, I remember now -- sorry, I'd forgotten about that when I wrote this article. Why don't you plonk a link to it in the comments here so that people can check it out if they wish to?
I think that's a good use of plagiarism checkers, checking your own stuff. That would have come in handy when I tried an AI research and writing app a few months ago. It wrote the article outline with loads of references in about 30 seconds, but then I spent a long time checking whether the app had simply copied and pasted or rewritten it. That was because I didn't quite trust the app!
Here is the link to my teacher story: (https://on.substack.com/p/office-hours-57/comment/10034681)
The Plagiarism checker I use is free up to 2,000 words. That's why I like it. It seems to work good for me. (https://www.check-plagiarism.com/)
While you're at it, you might want to check out this reply I did for someone wanting to know about the AI and writing website called WriteSonic. I had used it for a client and it didn't work very well. (https://pau1.substack.com/p/a-favorite-chrome-extension-copywriting/comment/9205551)
If the AI database uses your work, how can you be sure it won't tag you as a plagiarist?
True!
Brill. Thanks for all that info, Matthew. Very useful
I'm sorry that this happened to you, Terry. What a lazy teacher.
At junior school I remember a classmate named Justin being hauled over the coals in a lesson where we'd been told to write something from a textbook in our own words, for writing something like 'as explained in the previous chapter'. Hilarious!
In a biology lesson I was called to the front with two other pupils whom I vehemently disliked - they were bullies and best friends with each other, and I went out of my way to avoid them. Dr Bishop remonstrated with us for colluding on our previous week's homework. I was stunned, and found myself apologising for something I had no knowledge of. I got to the bottom of it later: you see, I would be one of the earliest arrivals at school in the morning, and would hand my homework in immediately by putting it on the front desk, where three piles of exercise books would form ready to be deposited into the relevant teachers' lockers. I had had no idea that others arriving after me were habitually rifling through the piles to find someone else's homework to quickly copy.
Lesson learned. I took to handing my homework in right at the last minute after that. But I remained furious with Dr Bishop for not having a clue about the dynamics of her class (there were only 15 of us)!
I think you were right to remain furious. Apart from anything else, she should have known her pupils well enough to know which ones would be likely to cheat.
As an antithesis to your story...
When I was a similar age, about 14 years old. I let my friend look at my history essay as he was obviously cramming - it was the night before. We would often look at each other's work - he would usually just want to know what text book chapters to read, and usually for fun argue for the opposite conclusion that I wrote referencing some really obscure sources. I enjoyed that, it felt like discourse.
This time, he plagiarised my work. The teacher approached us both with our essays and said: "These two are very similar. I think one of you copied the other. You have until the end of the class to come clean."
At the end of the class, my friend and I stayed behind and he admitted to copying my work, and he said 'but you already knew that." The teacher responded: "No, I didn't know. There's a difference between knowing and suspecting. All I knew is that the two essays were similar."
I didn't say a word throughout the whole thing, only passed my friend as note saying 'Really? You're an idiot.'
But the experience stayed with me. She was neutral and she gave us the opportunity to clean up our own mess. And I outgrew my naivety, without becoming overprotective of my work.
You were right about your friend! But having been a teacher, I've seen that kids simply don't trhink. For example, they will tell two teachers two completely different reasons why they didn't turn up in a lesson, without stopping to think that those teachers might actually talk to each other!
I think your teacher's approach was brilliant.
Wow, that's the right way to do it! 🙌